Curse

Riotgear · Sep 19, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Please, your assassin bashing is annoying, if you want broken, see a Rit.

Rits are loaded with bad ideas but most of the problems have been implementation issues. Weapon spells have potential to provide an interesting buff system with different properties and drawbacks than prot, and some of the few offensive buffs that can be directly cast on an ally. Item spells have the potential to allow an interesting way of allowing quickly-activated effects with different tradeoffs than maintained enchantments, or a way to sacrifice equipment benefits for other benefits. Spirits (other than the turrets) have the potential to provide lasting team buffs that still have a practical counter (namely, killling the spirit).

Of course, all of this is POTENTIAL. The class is more hindered by bad implementation than bad concept. The Assassin class has potential as a mobile base ganker (AOD) and disruptive melee pressure (Moebius), but the concept of making it an idiot-friendly button-mashing instagib spiker (Shadow Prison, DA spam) is essentially taking over.

And Augury of Death is still broken from the very concept, right now it's being used as a cheap DW that's really a purple arrow instead of a brown arrow until it kills you, with the inconvenient side-effect of teleporting you. Which is funny because teleporting you to the enemy was supposed to be the point.

And yes, Paragons are a better example of broken, because the entire class was built around a system with no existing counters, and the counters they added are bad.

Quote:

But I don't think Assassin casters should be nerfed, since with all the melee hate they need a way to evade it.

So melee classes need abilities to make them not melee classes in case people are running melee hate? Does Tactics need some hexes and DD spells now too?

Dealing with melee hate is part of running a melee class, just like dealing with caster hate is part of running a caster class. Adding ways to completely avoid the primary drawbacks of a class archetype creates degenerate builds that are overly effective for the lack of effort they take to run. You know, kind of like DA spam, Shadow Prison, Expose Defenses, and Rampage as One.

Darko_UK · Sep 19, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

My suggestion for a nurf: Make each thrown dagger count as 1 attack, So in essence you attack 3 times according to the game not just 1. So this way it triggers spiteful spirit 3 times, Then as it would be an attack now - It would also trigger indisiduous parasites.

Now that damage adds up fast if you think about it

Tab · Sep 19, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Apart from nobody uses SS and IP.

Shuuda · Sep 19, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

Apart from nobody uses SS and IP.

Well, 90% of all Necros in casual PvP run IP, and you can see how skillless they are by the fact 50% of them use it with reckless haste (IP and RH are counter productive) or the fact that they cast them spells on Assassin casters. And can skill shut down 80% of all Melee.

Quote:

So melee classes need abilities to make them not melee classes in case people are running melee hate? Does Tactics need some hexes and DD spells now too?

Dealing with melee hate is part of running a melee class, just like dealing with caster hate is part of running a caster class. Adding ways to completely avoid the primary drawbacks of a class archetype creates degenerate builds that are overly effective for the lack of effort they take to run. You know, kind of like DA spam, Shadow Prison, Expose Defenses, and Rampage as One.

Point well taken. But Assassin Casters are not (or were not, before Augury was used) a fool proof build in the way SP/BoA was, and had a common weakness of Caster hate (Interruptions etc) And is more energy intensive than SP/BoA.

Before some skill balances again, anti melee hexes (RH, Faintheartedness, PoF) were clearly broken in duration or recharge. And in RA, where Hex remove is weak, if you were the only melee on a team, a necro could keep you from attacking (The only reason I could get anywhere was because I started using Shroud of Silence, think of what it would be like for a warrior) And this is one reason why Assassin casters existed in the 1st place.

I'll agree, the assassin caster of today could use a balance, even without Augury it's still a viable tactic in casual level.

My Suggestions:

Change Deadly Paradox to effect Deadly Art skills, or if you want to nerf it badly, only spells.

Change Augury's deep wound to something like a Knock down, or Heal gain, or energy etc etc.

Riotgear · Sep 20, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Point well taken. But Assassin Casters are not (or were not, before Augury was used) a fool proof build in the way SP/BoA was, and had a common weakness of Caster hate (Interruptions etc) And is more energy intensive than SP/BoA.

Assassin casters are specifically a product of Deadly Paradox and Augury of Death, both are equally important. Deadly Paradox is what makes them extremely resistant to shutdown and makes it much harder to preempt any part of the chain. Augury of Death adds an extremely cheap "purple arrow DW" on top of it, making it significantly easier to succeed.

Without Augury, Assassin casters would probably disappear, but Deadly Paradox still needs to die so stuff like Entangling Asp and Feigned Neutrality can have reasonable recharges and perma-Shadow Form griefing builds can find a fire to die in.

Without Deadly Paradox, Assassin casters would probably disappear, but Augury still needs to die because it's going to become a mainstay in spike gimmicks until the DW is removed.

Quote:

And this is one reason why Assassin casters existed in the 1st place.

Saying that DA spam is a product of other Assassin play styles being ineffective is kind of silly: Nothing forces people to play a given class in PvP, if Assassins weren't viable at all, they would be playing something else. DA spam isn't chosen because Assassin players still need to play something, it's chosen because it's lets you get easy kills with practically no resistance, because you get to spike your target while they're on their ass.

Quote:

Change Deadly Paradox to effect Deadly Art skills, or if you want to nerf it badly, only spells.

30 second recharge, maybe even 5 second duration. Makes it useful for sporadically keeping stuff like FN and Shadow Form available without making them chainable, and takes a lot of steam out of the spam builds.

Quote:

Change Augury's deep wound to something like a Knock down, or Heal gain, or energy etc etc.

Change to Cripple and don't shadow step if you're within earshot of them, or possibly if attacking. It's a really stupid idea for a skill, and I don't think anyone would really miss it if it were buried again like Discord was, but it's even worse that it interrupts attack chains in progress.

Shuuda · Sep 20, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Without Augury, Assassin casters would probably disappear, but Deadly Paradox still needs to die so stuff like Entangling Asp and Feigned Neutrality can have reasonable recharges and perma-Shadow Form griefing builds can find a fire to die in.

I disagree, I have played assassin caster (or signet spiker as it was known) A while before the Augury and Toxic Shock buffs. Although it wasn't a 100% Kill chance build, it still provided great damage (Although there was more time inbetween combos) And it could provide some decent defencive support. Heck I'd say the old version was IMO better than the SoJ ones I see running around, but it's elite skill got nerfed.

glountz · Sep 26, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Unconditional DW you can cast before you spike = broken. It's going to be a mainstay on every caster spike gimmick as long as the DW stays.

I would answer to this from the other thread.
We were disagreing about Augury being Broken. I was saying that Augury was not so much, Deadly paradox was.
I was comparing AoD with Phantom Pain.
According to your definition, Phantom pain, being an unconditionnal uncounterable Deep Wound, would be overpowered. But it is not.
So I keep my opinion about Augury not being overpowered, it is only in conjunction with Deadly paradox.
The question you have to ask yourself is if Deadly Paradox didn't exist, would you still pack Augury on your skill bar?

Riotgear · Sep 26, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

According to your definition, Phantom pain, being an unconditionnal uncounterable Deep Wound, would be overpowered. But it is not.

Phantom Pain:
- Costs twice as much
- Takes twice as long to cast
- Tells the other team's monks "click the purple bar and put your finger on the SB/Infuse Health button."
- Requires Shatter Delusions to work properly.

Quote:

The question you have to ask yourself is if Deadly Paradox didn't exist, would you still pack Augury on your skill bar?

If I was running caster spike, yes, of course I would.

makosi · Sep 29, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Why does this still exist?

I remember knock-downs had draw-backs or required some adrenalin, caused exhastion, were elite or were conditional. These builds spam knockdowns which is 100% shutdown with the exception of stances. What stances save you when you're struck by one of these?

100+ Damage from a single skill that activates in 1/2 second with the easiest of conditions to meet is ridiculous. Maybe I'm a complete retard (and it's a real possibility) but I know when I'm being cheated and I, of all people, know what unfair is.

The same skills are also being abused in HA and I can't even see any efforts on wiki or anywhere else about sorting it. Do Anet want you to win by bashing buttons?

kvndoom · Sep 29, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Do Anet want you to win by bashing buttons?

See: Touch Ranger, Steady Stance, Shadow Prison...

Maybe those of us who complain about these builds are the fools, for wanting to enjoy the game's [sic] diversity [/sic] and not just jump on the "quick and easy" bandwagon. Maybe I'm an idiot for not playing Deadly Paradox and waiting for it to go away.

Wolala Wagaga · Sep 30, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40

I think making deadly paradox a 10E (or even 15E... but that would probably kill the skill) is enough to make the button mashing deadly paradox/DD sins hav a much harder time. it would actually take more skills to manage energy, and noobs will run out of energy to attack much quicker if they just spam the attacks.

Diddy bow · Sep 30, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Nothing wrong with them imo. There is plenty of ways to stop the build like any other build and it takes very close range.

TheOneMephisto · Oct 01, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolala Wagaga

I think making deadly paradox a 10E (or even 15E... but that would probably kill the skill) is enough to make the button mashing deadly paradox/DD sins hav a much harder time. it would actually take more skills to manage energy, and noobs will run out of energy to attack much quicker if they just spam the attacks.

That's pretty much what ANet should do in order to create the freedom to make the deadly arts line actually usable. That skill is just destroying any attempts to balance the line, because if anything is good without it then chances are that it's going to be ridiculous with it. Please just kill this skill or at least nerf it so much that it will only be used in obscure farming builds or something.

tunabreath · Oct 03, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

...so you simply use deadly paradox after using your lead? you lose half cast and making it an attack skill would automatically make it a dagger attack (i think? even if not it doesn't matter.) so you're forced to targetswap etc but in the end nothing matters.

if you want to fix it by disabling one of the key skills it has to be one during the chain and not the one starting it, because you can simply choose not to activate dparadox.

um, you need more than one cast of DD to kill the target... in fact if there's a healer you'll need to spam DD.

moko · Oct 03, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunabreath

um, you need more than one cast of DD to kill the target... in fact if there's a healer you'll need to spam DD.

nobody kills by spamming DD. lol, the chain kills, the masses of KD, the deepwound spam..not a spam of dancing daggers.

Shuuda · Oct 03, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Spamming DD wastes energy, that's why the wiki version of the build uses Castigation Signet, for lil' weiners who can't restrain themselves from spamming

X Cytherea X · Oct 04, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

stop crying about augury of death; remove it and the threat of deepwound is gone. i think it's GREAT than any caster class, whether e/ n/ a/ me/ has the ability to inflict DW. besides, theyd have to go /a, losing utilities they would have had from taking another secondary, go into 1/2 casting range, which is bad idea for 60/70 AL, and still have to meet the 1/2 health condition.

Symbol · Oct 04, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I don't really care about augury. I just really want deadly paradox to die. But izzy says he won't touch it so I'm sad.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 04, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

But izzy says he won't touch it so I'm sad.

I refuse to believe this. Where/when did he say this?

Symbol · Oct 04, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...Deadly_Paradox